And you signed up for one of those courses about four years ago, is that right? And so we've reconnected.
And then he's volunteered to do this interview as a case study for VysionQuest and share his thoughts and what changed in his life, what happened.
So yeah, I'm really glad that you took the time out to sit down and talk with us today, Michael. How are you?
Mike: I'm well, Rick. Doing really well. It's wonderful to be with you.
Rick: So we were chatting right before I hit record. And you had some realizations. So one of the things that I asked you to do before we reconnected was read through your VysionQuest workbook. What was the realization or that kind of viewpoint that stuck with you that you realized after checking out your workbook?
Mike: Yeah, so much there and heartening to know that a lot of the values that I could write about, things that were really dear to me, are just still staying in my life and just front and center, about presence with breath, thinking about like this idea of breathe until breathed, and being able to be centered in my body at any moment. Having that power. Being an incredible person with a purpose, like with a purpose in his life.
There's something about the affirmations of having a purpose in my vision statement that's just so important to me. And then what came forward from that was something you said on a call. I think that me and one of the other people on the call who are with kids that are just at an age where you can't just kind of go like, okay, they're on their own, they're doing their own thing. They're still at kind of that age where that's a part of, I don't know if it's like a project, if it's a calling, whatever I would call parenthood. But that part of the VysionQuest for me was not just about...
Rick: I'm going to pause you for one second. Speaking about parenthood, my internet looks like it's going slow. And my daughter might be on the internet. Hold on one second...
Okay. My daughter and her friend were making cinnamon scrolls this morning and they're here. I thought maybe they were online because it's slowing down, but anyway, I just wanted to cover that base.
Rick: Okay. So continue. Parenthood....
Mike: Yeah. And that slowing down and being there for my wife and life partner, Rocio. Being there for my kids. Is a part of this... um... there's one thing that I think the VysionQuest, like, I can almost hear you saying, it's like, what do I want to do with the precious time that I have?
What are the things that I find myself most prioritizing? Because my time is so precious, for the pursuits that I want to... well... while I get to be here. And connection with community, with my work, with my family, with just, you know, experiences on this Fyckit List, this bucket list, you know, where it's like this, this is what I say I'd love to do with the time that I have here.
So a recentering of parenthood is one of those things that comes right to the fore.
Rick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's such a good point that I often bring up, especially with people who have kids - maybe it's only with people who have kids - who are doing this process.
One of my attitudes is that I would rather my business success comes slower because I'm taking some of my time every day and doing fun things with my kids, and, you know, going to the beach and body surfing or, you know, whatever it is, just spending time with them. I've proven that in my life. That I would rather it grow more slowly, but have that connection with my kids.
And I think that that's probably a message that a lot of the people who are attracted to this work... they are achieving, they're action takers, they're driven. And so their default is more leaning towards, "I'm going to say no to my family or even my own health and well being because I'm attacking my work and my financial goals and things like that."
So sometimes we just need that reminder of like, man, our kids, they're only kids for a short time. My son's 11. In five, six years, he's not going to want to be hanging out with me probably. But right now he does. And my daughter does. So, yeah. You know, when they're gone, then I can be, you know, workaholic and smash it out if that's that's what I want there.
Mike: I want to say one other thing, too, that comes to me, Rick. In this time you were talking about. it. It's okay to go slower if it's in the name of having this time with your two lovely kids.
This is years ago, but my oldest said to me, just hanging out and I think it's really apropos to the vision in a round about way. My oldest said to me - she's 13 now - she was maybe six or so.
She said, "How come you don't get to know when you die?"
And I thought it was such a profound question. And I looked at her and I said, "Baby, that's a great question. And we don't know. We gotta love each other every day. And we got to love what we do every day. Because we don't get to know."
And so it was, you know, just something that a wisdom from the mouth of babes moment. Like in away I felt that there was so much that you asked our group to reflect on. So many sort of influences in our lives. Things we'd done to that point. But all at the service of... with however much precious time you have left, what do you dream to do? What's the thing that you're just going like, "Yeah, this is potentially what I would do with however much time I have left."
So I just love these question because we don't know. And I think even one of the exercises early in the VysionQuest was about if you only had I believe it was like a year...
Rick: Six months.
Mike: Six months. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rick: That's great. That's great. Do you remember what the strongest reason that you signed up for the VysionQuest was? What was going on in your life and what compelled you to want to do it?
Mike: Yeah. I was starting two things. Starting a business on my own as an independent, licensed psychotherapist in California. So going off on my own, a private practice.
And also at that point in 2017, I would have been in my 20th year of relationship and 15th year of marriage with my wife Rocio.
So I think it's Esther Perel who wrote Mating In Captivity and some other writing. She wrote people are married many times even in the same marriage. So I think there was also a bit of just going, we're good, but I'm not settling for good. What are the things that need to happen in this relationship so we don't just look back and go, "Yeah, that was good. We survived that marriage." Just doing more than surviving marriage. So I think my relationship and then also starting a business.
Yeah. Yep. So it's really cool to hear that. Because there's always the balance of your professional and contribution, purpose, and then your purpose in your personal life.
And people usually sign up for one more than the other, you know? Like they're called for one, even though what they walk away with might be results in the other area of their life. But it sounds like you could see the value in getting clear on both your personal and your professional life.
So if we look at your professional life, can you tell me what you do? And then also, what are the things that have happened in your professional life? The good things that you feel like are related to the clarity and the work that you put in during the VysionQuest process.
Mike: My work is working with men who are in some kind of struggle about their sexuality or their eroticism. Meaning it might be guys who have relationship with sexual imagery, aka porn. It might be guys who have been in a relationship or a marriage and have broken the agreements in that marriage or been unfaithful to the agreements in that marriage.
Largely men contact me when they're at a point of losing a relationship, marriage, job or all of them. And they're sort of at a moment of, okay, there's some consequences to what I've been doing. How do I want to think about the man that I've been to this point in my life? And what are some of the ways that I'm thinking about masculinity and manhood going forward, if what's happening is not working ,and is needing some kind of change.
And it's an honor to do that work with men because at that point, when they take it a step forward to want to talk to someone like me and ultimately do group work with other men, they've got some stories. They've got some stories of both what's gone wrong to lead them to here, but also some stories of hopes and dreams, as well as stories of who they know they'd like to be as men.
So having a profession where I just get to be in contact with men about... you know, it's a vision quest of sorts. It's more in a sense of sort of masculinity and sexuality. But it's also literally in sort of the plans that I have them write - similarly to how you had me write - I'm asking them about their vision of sexual health. And to really construct that.
I'm not dictating that to men. We're asking them questions about their lives and getting them through that.
So it's an honor to do that work. And I think from the VysionQuest, I realized that I was spending quite a bit of time on a lot of the bureaucracy and a lot of the marketing. So just figuring out how to get those processes to the point where they weren't taking up so much time and that I could be focused on more time with clients, doing things that I enjoy doing and get energy from.
And I think there was an 80/20 exercise, like minimizing the things that were taking away the life energy and the vitality that is brought to me by the work that I love, minimizing those things or eliminating them completely.
I can remember I was lucky enough to have your sister in our VysionQuest group, Julie. And I mentioned one thing I was doing and she didn't even asked me she was like, "Source that out. You do not need to be doing that." You know?
So just having that support from another professional to go, yeah, that's something someone else can do. That's not maximizing the skills you have.
Rick: Hmm. What do you think are the most fulfilling kinds of moments or interactions that you have through your work?
Mike: When people can come to a level of vulnerability about... when men can come to a level of vulnerability about desire and saying, "There are things that I enjoy, there are things that I really enjoy..."
Because generally by the time someone's gotten to me, they've had all sorts of discoveries, not of the positive sort. And there are all sorts of fingers pointed at them about you've done this and you're that because of it.
And for men to just be able to say, as a human being, there are certain things that I really, really enjoy and be able to understand that that's okay. As long as what we do is in the context of some agreements we make with the people we love and with the communities that we're in.
That it's really okay to release shame and embrace pleasure as human beings on the planet. So there's something about that. When men can get there in these dialogues and that I'm not just seen as their gatekeeper, accountability person, you know? And whatever it is, I'm happy to be all those things, but when they're able to transcend that and also see me as a conversational partner to go like, "What is it that you enjoy either on a sexual level or just on a life level? And how do you affirm that in ways that don't do any harm or, or transgress?"
It's a cool moment. Because I think men then go from like, oh wow, I am able to enjoy something without actually doing harm or breaking an agreement.
And that's just like... it's about as satisfying is when I'm in my own life, when I'm just sort of out having some enjoyment with family or friends or doing recreation. I know it's work. I acknowledge that it's work. But when in my mind, when I'm seeing another get to the point where they've understood accountability, reconciled shame, and they're back to wanting a certain kind of pleasure for themselves in their lives, I feel like my work is having them on the right path.
Rick: Mmm. That sounds huge. Sounds like it's showing people there's a path forward, that works for them, and it works for everyone.
Mike Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
I should say, I feel like you've been a teacher in that too. Like watching you work. There's something about watching your work in your curiosity, watching your work in your respectfulness. Knowing that there's something that you wanted for me and for every person in our group. And yet there wasn't an agenda.
It wasn't like, "You've got to do this, you've got to do that." But it was clear that you had a loving energy of wanting everyone to value their lives, value themselves, their time and know that they were really special.
But then also leaving it to us. And I don't think that's easy to do. So there's a way that I want to also say thank you, because part of my skills as a professional were actually just by participating and watching you work. Which was rad. So I want to say thanks.
Rick: Thanks. That's great to hear. I'll tell you one of my secrets.
This came out in one of the VysionQuest retreats. I'm all about purpose and helping people understand their purpose so they can live their purpose because that's the most... that's going to be the most fulfilling, satisfying, joyful thing that you can do. And it's really a way of being that each person has.
It's not a thing that you do. That's more like a dream or a mission or a goal. Your purpose is a way of being that you have.
I've told this story a few times, but one of the lunches at our retreat - I like to ask questions that are intentional questions, so it's not just like idle chit chat about politics or whatever. Like we're really using that time. Because our time together on retreats is so precious. That week flies by.
So we're sitting there at lunch and sometimes I leave it to the participants to ask questions. And this one woman Alicia asked, "If you could have a superpower, what would it be?"
And I'm like... uh, that question annoys me. Cause at the time I had little kids and my son would always ask me that question. I never knew what to say. Like, I don't know, I'm just not into it. I like to visualize, but like the fantasy stuff doesn't really land with me.
So anyway, we go through that. Everyone says something. And then I get this idea and I go, "If you could have a spiritual superpower, what would it be?"
And everyone kind of sat back and was like, "What does that even mean?" And then one by one, we went around the table and everyone shared something. And essentially everyone's shared the same thing.
Everyone said some version of, "I would take away people's suffering and I would help them know who they are, and how powerful they are, and be themselves." Some version of that.
And it was this total light bulb moment for me. That our purpose... we all have the same purpose! Which is, help people and relieve their suffering, and wake them up to their power and who they are.
And everyone has some unique flavor, like unique energy, that you do it. And so when I see you, I see you've kind of tapped into that unique energy and flavor and the method of how you do it through your work.
And, you know, you're so fortunate to have that vehicle. And to already have been tuned into your spirit enough while you were going through school and deciding what you were going to do with your life. Because a lot of people, they just chose a profession based on money or security or prestige or whatever. They weren't connected to that calling inside them.
It's so cool to hear you're taking people on a kind of a vision quest. Helping them discover who they are, take away their suffering and find a path forward.
It's just so delightful to hear that you've found your path to doing that.
Mike: Rick, I know this is supposed to be an interview of me and my time, but could I ask you a question about that story?
Mike: Because one thing I was imagining was at a certain point you had to like put aside your judgment or disdain of the question and go, "I want to do something with this question."
Cause it sounds like at the time it was like, "I've heard of this question." And it wasn't one that you cared for particularly, I think you said. And I'm curious, in that moment, what you chose to do to put aside whatever your relationship was to the superpower question, and then come up with a question, "Everyone, what's your spiritual superpower?
Rick: Yeah. The first thing that comes to mind is when I lead groups, I try to do it as humanly as I can and not like, "Aw yeah, I've got everything figured out, everything's perfect in my life. My mind, my emotions and everything. Everything's perfect."
I don't do it like that. Like I'll... when I start a retreat, I've started it saying very ridiculous things about like, a bad mushroom trip I had a couple of days ago, so if I seem a little weird... Cause these icebreakers...
Mike: "Just letting you know!"
Rick: These icebreakers that just like shatter... Cause everyone shows up and they're kind of nervous and I'm nervous. It takes me a couple of days to feel relaxed and get to know people and that. So I just try to shatter the ice. By being as human as I can.
And another part of it is that I make a space that you guys fill. You guys step into this space.
So, you know, it's not about, it's not about me, like you said, putting my ideas onto you. Like also what you do with your clients. You're not telling them what to believe. You're not telling them exactly what the solution is. Like. They've got to find it. So I'm making a space that you guys fill.
And sometimes the first thing that comes out with how someone is filling the space is... whatever... it's confronting for me. Or I'm in over my head. Or whatever it is. But it's just like riding a wave. You just kind of keep going and see where it's taking you.
And then, yeah, I'm not sure, that other question just kind of popped into my mind. And so many times, what's happening with a group, even if in the moment it seems like it's clunky or it's not flowing or it seems like nothing is happening... Always it's exactly what should be happening.
And it might not be until, you know, five minutes down the track, or two days later, that you see the seeds that were planted start to bear fruit. And you just go, alright, everything really is happening perfectly.
Mike: I just want to add onto your wave metaphor, which I guess is not such a metaphor. You're a surfer and you do activities in the water. It's part of the VysionQuest in-person retreats, especially.
And I just want to add onto that because I was doing some work in my kid's room building a bed last night. In the background I wanted to put a soundtrack on just to have something in the background to pass the time, some music. And so I took the movie, maybe about 10 or 15 years old, called Broke Down Melody.
And there's a Gerry Lopez quote in there that I had forgotten, that Gerry Lopez says in this movie. He says, "The most important gift surfing has given to me is remembering that the present moment is the most important moment."
And so there's something about that. How you're talking about just showing up and being right here, even if that's like shattering some ice, but it's right now. We're all here right now. What will we do with this precious moment?
Anyway, there's a lot that Gerry Lopez says that I think is pretty wise. So I like that quote.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything, any changes in your personal life that you feel were related to the clarity that you got at the VysionQuest?
Mike: If there's one main change... I have my Fyckit List here...
Rick: By the way, for people who are listening, the Fyckit List is a nickname for the five-year bucket list.
Mike: Sorry. People are just going to think that I'm this foul mouth random guy that Rick invited on. Like he keeps swearing, sorry, but yeah...
Rick: He's in the right profession. All he talks about is fucking, so...
Mike: So it's perfect. Yes. F-Y-C-K-I-T as in five-year. F-Y-C-K-I-T. And it's in the center of... I made this mosaic of different bubbles that I wanted to emphasize. Love for Rocio. Attending to relationship before any other distractions. Fulfilling and connecting.
So, has it been a change? You know, I think it's more of like an ongoing - in any relationship - an ongoing of like... I think the change is being sensitive to, how's this going? Like, Hey, life partner, how's this going?
Cause like humans that get busy, I'm going to fall out of it. So I imagine you're going to get some stories in these interviews where people develop businesses that became multi-million dollar businesses or did some things that were absolutely revolutionary.
I won't say this was. But what I will say is that there's a way to attending to a relationship that I hope to be lifelong, very sincere and very loving. That has Rocio going, "You're here. you're here. In the really awesome times. And you're also here in the times when things are hard. When one of us has gone to a place where we're not happy with each other and just showing up."
So I think that... let me take a look. My work can be stressful, but not physically. It's a lot of sitting and writing and listening and kind of doing what we're doing right now. But in your shoes. And I have to be listening closely. Asking people some questions that are hopefully giving them a hand. And I don't move a lot in that work.
So there's something about making sure to surf for swim at least a couple of times every week. And to meditate several times a week. And Rick, there's a way that I want to go, like that's more than just physical health. I know at a Western alopathic medical appointment, that doctor would be like, "How many hours a week are you getting of exercise?" Great question. Right?
I think it's really important, exercise, but it's more than that. So I think it's also something in the VysionQuest that's going this is more than just checking a box. This is actually about, how is any sort of physical pursuit going to be related to my precious time and a nurturing of a spirit that's just like, "I'm going out in the world with this purpose of purposefulness. Of who I am."
This might be an example. Rick, I appreciate this because you know me, I can tell stories. So thanks for this time. Last night at Blacks, I hadn't been out at Blacks for a while just because of time. And, you know, Ro said like, yeah, just go. She took the girls to a birthday party. And right around sunset when people were starting to peel out of the water, it was a below average day for blacks. But good enough. And these two guys were there that were left in the lineup and I noticed them speaking Spanish. And that's like a beloved second language for me that I've learned over the years in San Diego.
And I was literally... I'm on my own. I'm just here. Just keep surfing. And then I was like, no, part of my purpose in the world is actually connecting with people. And often my friends say, you do a really good job at connecting and it's part of your energy. When it's on it's really good at making connections with people.
And I just asked them, where are you guys from? And they were from Madrid. They were here doing... I don't need to get into their story, but we're really excited to be at Blacks at a moment when the sun had gone down and the colors were exploding. And that I was this random guy speaking to them in their language. And that we exchange maybe like four or five minutes of conversation. But I made a decision to just go and connect because that's part of my purpose on the planet, is to be a connector of people and not get into this sort of mindset of "I've just gotta be this rugged guy on his own surfing, and not interact or, you know, just be cool or just be tough." Or something like that.
No. Part of my beauty as a person, in realizing my life, is being present with people. And when the moment's possible and when there's an opening to do so, like there was in the water... just saying hello and smiling.
So anyway, does that make me a better dad, a better husband or a better business owner?
Ostensibly, no. But in terms of keeping the energy moving of ways that I am in the world, of enjoying connecting and honoring myself as a connector, it does. And those are just choices to make. So anyway, that's just one small example.
Rick: Yeah, it's small, but it's huge. You know, our lives, all they are is this simple little moment that keeps on rolling forward.
Rick: And all the little tiny choices we make in the moment and what we listen to as our guidance. Very nice. Very nice.
I miss Blacks, man. It's been a long time since I've surfed there.
Mike: What do you miss the most?
Rick: In terms of blacks?
Mike: Uh huh.
Rick: Just good waves. Good waves. Yeah. Powerful peaks. Yeah. Where I live now, the waves are pretty much mediocre where I live. Temperature's right. It's tropical right now. But it's pretty small.
Mike: It's chilly here. But I'll just say, Rick, I love one thing about you... your humility. Because, it was a legendary winter, the winter of 1994. It was one of the better winters in San Diego or in California. And it was a winter of our first year in university.
And I'll never forget, no matter how big it got, you would want to go out. But I once asked you, "What kind of ways do you like?" And I was expecting you to say, "As big as it comes." You know? Like, "I'll take on anything."
But you didn't. You were just like, "My favorite wave is about this big (points to his shoulder) and perfect shape."
And you said it was such kind of level energy. Like, "No, I love waves this big. When there are kind of square, not round, and beautiful."
And it wasn't the answer I was expecting. Because you had been out that winter in some waves that were bigger than I wanted to surf in. It was MEATY that winter.
So anyway, I'll never forget that.
Rick: That's fun. That's fun. I don't know if I'm still like that. I don't get in large waves very much these days. But I'm curious. I'm curious if I'd see them now and be like, "That looks fun." Or I'd be like, "Eh, I'll go to Scripps." I don't know.
Mike: Go down the block.
Rick: Yeah. Let me ask you one more question, Mike. What kind of person do you think the VysionQuest is good for? And what would you tell that person if they were on the fence about signing up?
Mike: The VysionQuest is good for any person that has not even a lot, but just SOME time. Because it takes some time.
If it's someone that has no time, I would say, wait till a time when you have some time. To put aside time first thing in the morning to do some breathing, and then put aside time either right after that or some other time in your day to get into some exercises that - I feel a little bit of emotion welling up - that let you connect to the most precious things in your life. The most precious people in your life. Some of those precious experiences. Some of the experiences that you've had, that maybe you don't like so much that you're trying to change and then do some honest writing. And then some honest reflecting with teammates. I did it virtually, but either virtually or in person, with some teammates that have your back.
Not just you, but others. Specifically I'm remembering Julie and Jeremy, but there were others. I felt like at every point they had my back in this. And there's something about a little crew that has your back that as humans, like I think we do things in groups and sometimes in smaller groups, that people give us the power to move mountains that were otherwise hard to move ourselves.
And I think the VysionQuest really does that. It creates this set of activities. But if I was just doing it on my own, or if I was just doing it with you as a consultant, it wouldn't be the same as having a small community where people are just like, great, I see you. And I see what your purpose is. And some of where you're trying to take this.
So I would say any person that's looking for some activity and some community to allow themselves to be inspired and to feel... I mean, this is a tricky thing to say, but to feel their heart. Like when you just feel something come over your body and go like, oh, this is how I want to feel about purpose. This is how I want to feel about direction.
I would just encourage them. And it's funny, I'm sure you get this a lot in these videos, but I would want them to reach out to me. And drop me a line or, you know, send me a text. And I'll say like, I'll tell you another story. Cause I think there's probably a hundred stories that we're not going to get to on this hour that have to do with the kind of openness to the present. Openness to the things that we love.
Putting aside the things that don't define our lives or don't uphold our highest intentions, that I feel like the VysionQuest is lovely for. And I'm grateful for.
Rick: Well said, thank you. It's really fun to ask people what they would tell someone, either to prepare for it or someone who's on the fence and every time the message comes. It just comes from the heart.
And it could be the most effective thing for people to hear, you know? Rather than me rambling on and saying what they're going to get or whatever. They hear someone who's done it. Because it's like the words don't even matter. It's just a feeling that comes out of you thats like, "Aah, something special happens."
Mike: And I'm also grateful too, Rick, for this. The way that you've stayed in touch with alumns. Because you stay in touch. My wife did this. She loved doing the course and talks about it to people. I love dusting off the sketchpad that I used to write all this stuff down in and then go, oh, there's a snapshot of me for things that I don't often make time for because I don't journal as much as I should. In a moment of my life where I really sat down and just got down to it and writing some really important things down to me. So that too.
Rick: Yeah. There's been a couple of improvements since you did the course. One is there's a workbook that you print out now. Which is nice. And then, when we do the work. It takes one hour every morning from 5:30-6:30.
And so you're right. It takes some time. It takes some discipline and dedication. But what I've found... it's actually the easiest way to do it. When you just know you're going to roll out of bed, get a glass of water, brush your teeth, and then just sit down, listen to the meditative audio lesson, do the writing exercise.
That's where you're going to be for the first hour every morning. You don't have to think about it. You don't have to try to fit it into your day. And you just hear, you hear these messages coming through. Before you've kickstarted your personality and you're answering messages and you've said hi to people and everything.
It's just like the purest, cleanest, clearest time to get those messages.
Mike: I love what you're saying. Like this term "kickstarting your personality". That space that we would give ourselves before we have to occupy other roles in our life. So I really, I hadn't heard that said before, and it's profound.
Like what would I want to do with the time before I have to show up in the world as a parent, as a therapist, as whatever, however I need to show up that day. As a caretaker to elders, whatever. As an executive. Who knows. But that time. For me there's nothing like that time.
So I would say to the person that's on the fence, "Are you ready for some of that time? That literally is heart and mind opening and blowing?" Yeah.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Thanks so much, Mike. I really appreciate your time and it's great to reconnect here. Is there anything else you want to say before we sign off?
Mike: It's all being said with my hands, right? (Both hands are on his heart.) So I'm just sending that to you because I know we're about halfway around the world. And I dunno, maybe I'll end with some humor.
When we were first getting started in the process I think I said to you, "Rick, there's this thing called Zoom. And I like it better than the platform that you're on now."
And like, it was just in a moment when this was all so new. It was a little while ago. I just think about where we've been and it both makes me laugh, but it also makes me shed a tear because I want to get back to just being able to run up to people and hug them and say, "Hey, it's nice to be close again."
And I'll still do that now with a mask. But that this is now sort of what's come to pass since we were doing it as sort of pioneers in that time. It's bittersweet, it's bittersweet.
I'm glad we can do this from halfway around the world and I wouldn't miss it. And at the same time it has me remembering to move away from electronics and be with, you know, beating hearts and breath and music and dance and joy, in some ways that that don't have to be virtual.
So kind of maybe a relationship between. For the people that do the course online, like doing the online to have those sorts of special moments with yourself and then having that be like, okay, that was my online time.... Now where do I want to go with that?
Rick: Yeah. That's funny that you probably introduced me to Zoom.
Mike: You were on something else that I can't remember what it was. And I was like, "Rick, this is good." But I'd been on this consultation group with other therapists. And I like this thing, it's called Zoom. And I was pretty new to it too. We'd been using it for five or six months. So anyway, yeah.
Rick: Yeah. It could have been Skype that we were using. Which ironically is what we're using right now, because it records better when we're doing an interview.
But yeah. Cool. Well, thanks so much, Mike. I look forward to checking in again with you soon and hearing what else happens. Thanks for spreading the love, the VysionQuest love. I appreciate it.
Mike: Be well, Rick. Great seeing you. Best to you.
Rick: Yeah. Okay. Take care, brother.